Cal
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Cal |
Re: Ayn Rand | ||
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Although this thread got off to a bumpy start, there are some excellent posts and good reading suggestions. Thought I'd bump it up.
Cal |
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Unregistered(d) |
jrash : a dialogue | ||
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The speaker is Socrates, who is living in modern day New York, educating the young men and women of the city in his usual style.
jrash : a dialogue I. I went down to Central Park the other day with floothe. I wanted to see the Sigur Ros concert that was playing there. I must say I thought the performance was splendid. After we had seen the show we started to make our way home when jrash noticed us in the distance and sent Gorthol ahead to tell us to wait for him. Gorthol caught my coat from behind and said "jrash says you are to wait". I turned and asked where he was. "He's coming along behind you. Do wait." "We will," said floothe, and soon afterwards jrash came up; with him were Jango Fett, Smooch and others who had apparently been to the concert. "Socrates," said jrash, "I believe you are making your way back to the city. You really chould stay with us. Come over here, there's something we want to show you." "Where do you mean," I said. "Over here," he said, pointing to a small enclosure in the park. "What is this place," asked floothe, "and how do you spend your time here?" "It's a new martial arts club, and we spend our time discussing Natalie Portman. So please, do stay." floothe replied, "It looks like we'll have to stay." "Well, if you think so," I smiled, "stay we must." |
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Jango Fett |
Re: Ayn Rand | ||
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hello, euripides trousers...i dont believe i have ever said hello to you...i dont think u even know me...but hello! anyway
"Yingle Yangle Fingle Dangle Jango! Ja Ja Jingle Pop!."
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TMAN |
Re: jrash : a dialogue | ||
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Oh, great idea, ET! So you're stealing your structure from the Phaedrus? lol I think I'm gonna do IamApimp meets Foucault...
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Red40 |
Re: Ayn Rand | ||
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Oh, I can't wait for this...
Howdy, euripides, good to see you around. "I got ways of making you talk. I'll make your life hell son."-jrash567
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: Ayn Rand | ||
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Hello Jango Fett. Nice to meet you. I've been a quiet fan of yours for some time.
You've just won yourself a role in the dialogue. Red and TMAN will have to write their own. |
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pnina2 |
A famous paradox | ||
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Has anyone heard of the famous "liar" paradox?
If not, then I'll present it for you: statement: "Everything I say is a lie." 1)If what the person says is true, than the statement is false. 2)If what the person says is false, than the statement is true. Has anyone noticed the paradox? I read a very interesting book about paradoxes, and several suggestions of solving this paradox were given, yet the author didn't consider those suggestions to be actual solutions ! Any suggestions, solutions? Pnina2. "Are you talking to me?"
Travis Bickle |
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: A famous paradox | ||
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Pnina2
What about applying Russell's ramified theory of types or Tarskian semantics? OK, OK, I cheated and looked up a book. What is the name of that book on paradoxes, pnina2? I'm interested in logic but I find it very difficult. So any help would be greatly appreciated. Other paradoxes: The barber paradox: In a certain town, the barber shaves everyone who doesn't shave himself. Who shaves the barber? Russell's paradox: The set of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Is it a member of itself? |
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floothe |
Re: A famous paradox | ||
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aren't there numerous options to these paradoxes?
I don't think there has to be a solution. statement: "Everything I say is a lie." believe the person don't believe the person the person is joking around the person is being self depricating and self loathing needs more data/not enough information given it's not important to figure out/move on the person was told to say this the person is reading it from an outside source the person is quoting another person The barber paradox: In a certain town, the barber shaves everyone who doesn't shave himself. Who shaves the barber? do you mean "but" not "who"? someone from another town? barber goes to another town? barber used some product that makes him hairless? someone else in the town? aliens? god? this is a fairy tale? i go to the town and shave the barber? Russell's paradox: The set of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Is it a member of itself? yes. isn't there only one thing, ultimately, in the universe? hehehheehe. I want there to be a Natalie and pizza paradox. ntl s mmr thn pzz |
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pnina2 |
Solutions and Suggestions | ||
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Hi, ET - Sorry for the very delayed response !
Here are some suggestions of solving the "Liar paradox": (These are the explanations of the solutions you suggested, ET; Of Russelle's and Tarskian's) 1. By Alfred Tarskian: "It's raining" - the "object's language" is English. "this sentence is of two words" - "Mata-language": A language which is above the ordinary language. Tarskian says, that the "liar paradox" - a semantic paradox, is within the natural/ordinary language, which allows us to submit words like: "true" or "false" to it's own sentences. This possibility, allows the natural language to contain contradictions. The words "true", "false" - the talking about the meaning - all these are semantic elements, which their existence within the language resolves in paradoxes. The "liar paradox" is using the language to say something about the truth or false of it's own sentences. By that, two levels of language - the "object's language" level and the "mata-language" level, are mixed. When the liar says that he's saying a lie, he's using the "mata-language". At this point, or on this level, he can point out a sentence in the "object's language", and to say that it is false. He's simultaneously, speaking both levels of language. The writer* claims, that Tarskian's suggestion is not a solution. Also Tarskian himself, did not think he had provided a solution to the "liar paradox", within the natural language. 2. Many solutions refer to the phrase "Self-Reference". Which means, that the "liar paradox" would have been prevented if it hadn't contained self-reference. So, one must avoid self-reference. The writer* claims again, that it is not a solution, since the particular paradox was phrased in different versions, which avoided self-reference, but still contained paradoxes. 3. Kripke's solution: Why not accept that a statement can be either true, or false, or paradoxical? - But naturally, this solution contradicts pure-classic logic, which claims that there are only two possibilities: "true" or "false". Paradox: "The set of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Is it a member of itself? Russell's solution (An explanation) Russell claimed, that paradoxes are created when one is trapped in a "Vicious Circle". In order to avoid that, one must pay attention that when phrasing qualities, what characterizes a whole collection, isn't one of the collection itself. Russell developed the "Theory Of Types", which divides all existences in the world to existences of type A, B etc. Instead of "existences", we'll use the word "objects". Objects of type A, B, C - and the world is divided to these types; The lowest type are the individuals in the world. The kind which is above it, are the qualities of these individuals and the kind which is above that, are the qualities of the qualities of these individuals and so on. Each language has a type, and we must recognize the signs that represent objects of the first, second and third types. We mustn't mix the types. Therefore, first we must see if the sentences are meaningful and only afterwards, weather they are true or not. Each sign of the language has, has it's own field of meaning, that it has to fit into, so we can understand what we're saying; If someone said: "Aristotle is a benefit", than he/she didn't claim a false statement, but said something which was meaningless, because he/she didn't apply his/her sentence on to levels, types and fields of meaning. It is possible to apply sets or a quality, only on what's one level beneath them. This is the solution to "Is it a member of itself?" paradox. * The writer is Anat Biletzki and the book is "Paradoxes". Here are some books or essays regarding the subject, from the book's ("Paradoxes") bibliography: Chihara Charles S., "The Semantic Paradoxes: A Diagnosis", Philosophical Review, 88, 1979. Goodman N., Fact, Fiction and Forecast, Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1955. Grelling, K., "The logical paradoxes", Mind 45, 1936. Hempel, C., Aspects of Scientific Explanations and Other Essays in the Philosophy of Science, New York: The Free press, 1945. Martin Robert L., ed., Recent Essays on Truth and the liar paradox, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1948. Popper, K., "Self-reference and meaning in ordinary language", Mind 63, 1945. Russell, B., "Mathematical logic as based on the theory of types", American Journal of Mathematics 30, 1908. I hope this list helps you ET, or at least interests you. The book I read was in Hebrew and I don't think it was translated to English, sorry ! - I also couldn't find any suggestions/solutions to the "Barber paradox". I also enjoy logic very much. It's sometimes hard to understand, especially at first, but little by little it gets clearer and clearer... That's the beauty of it ! And needless to say, that I would have never thought of these solutions or even suggestions, myself. But still, I believe that: Poetry and Philosophy build minds ! Floothe, I'll think of a Natalie-Pizza paradox. More likely, I'll look for one, which may be suitable. "Are you talking to me?" - Travis Bickle
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jrash567 |
Re: A famous paradox | ||
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Euripides trousers great story you made about me, Jango, and floothe. But you put it in the wrong thread. It was suppose to be on my fiction thread
. Great post E!.
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pnina2 |
A Natalie-Pizza paradox | ||
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"How to get to your pizza"
Natalie was in her room reading a book. for a moment, she raised her eyes, took a look at her watch and realized she had been reading for hours. Suddenly, she felt hungry. So, she layed down her book, went towards the kitchen, and then noticed a delicious slice of pizza on the kitchen's table. She felt a sudden urge to grasp that slice, but how could she get to the table? - Although there were only four steps which distanced her from her current fantasy, but according to Xenon's paradox of dichotomy, one could never get from one point to the other, since infinity was between them. Natalie feared, she would never be able to indulge herself in this way; She would never get to her pizza, since she would have to pass half of the way but before that half of the half..."God!" ,she thought to herself, "Xenon! - that stupid one who didn't have anything better to do, rather than to search for paradoxes" - What would Natalie do? But, clever Natalie wasn't about to give up ! - She went back to her room, searched for a few books, and finally came across her salvation - A solution to Xenon's Paradox of Dichotomy ! She read that paragraph: Solution - The term 'Limit' 'Limit' is a mathematical term or place, which can describe the end of an infinitive series. For example: We say that even though the series 1+1.25+1.5+...+2, is infinitive it's limit is 2. With defying this term, we can clarify how a person gets from one point to the other. Joy filled Natalie's heart, when she realized she could finally get to her pizza - It was her "limit" ! She ran to the kitchen, grasped her pizza, but before she took her first bite, she had said to herself: "What a great contribution, Philosophy and Mathematics are, to our lives !" Bon Appetite, Natalie ! "Are you talking to me?" - Travis Bickle
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jrash567 |
Re: A famous paradox | ||
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Good one too! pnina.
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floothe |
Re: A Natalie-Pizza paradox | ||
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YEAH!!
A Natalie and pizza paradox! Thanks pnina2!! hahaahhahahahhaa. I am so amused that she walked numerous steps into her room to get a book but had a problem walking 4 steps to the pizza. Natalie, you so crazzzzyy! heehehe. Here's a bizarre question for any of you: Why why? ntl + flth=hpp hpp j j!! O come let me adore her! O come let me adore her! O come let me adore Her-rrrrr! Nat-a-liePortman!!!!
"Could it be that a society that practices violence in order to end violence has it a bit backwards? That is the problem with many moral justifications. They can breed insane behaviors. Your planet saw evidence of that on September 11th, 2001. Again."-God |
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Unregistered(d) |
Re: Solutions and Suggestions | ||
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Thanks very much, pnina2. The thinker without a paradox is like the lover without feeling: a paltry mediocrity. - Kierkegaard. I'll follow up on those references. I like Kripke's answer, myself. Love the Natalie/pizza story. The Barber paradox is easy -- the barber's a woman! I'm very interested in Wittgenstein at the moment. I read his Tractatus Logico Philosophicus a month or so ago. Reading it fascinated me but also made me realise I know very, very little about logic. What is amazing about the book is that he extends it from logic to being about the metaphysics of life and the universe. One of the things W. was trying to do was improve on Russell's Theory of Types. He believed he'd done it with his Picture Theory of language. Basically this is that logical propositions (and any language) can only show the nature of the world, not explain it. "What can be shown cannot be said." So I'm now reading Ray Monk's biography of W.: "Ludwig Wittgentein : The duty of genius". Also a little book on Kant by Roger Scruton. And also another excellent book by Scruton called "Modern Philosophy". He has a good section on Paradoxes. Thanks, jrash. Part 2 will follow soon. |
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pnina2 |
Re: Solutions and Suggestions | ||
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"The thinker without a paradox is like the lover without
feeling: a paltry mediocrity" - Kierkegaard. That's SO true.... Hi, ET: Or maybe, the barber is naturally bald ! This Wittgenstein guy, sounds interesting. Hi, floothe: How did Natalie get to her room? - She ran! - HaHaHaHa... Glad you enjoyed the story, jrash567! "Are you talking to me?" - Travis Bickle
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Unregistered(d) |
jrash. II | ||
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II
[Socrates introduces the subject of the dialogue, namely, Why are we Natalie fans?. SmOOch offers a possible answer.] The enclosure was full of Natalie fans: some were practising martial arts moves, others were in animated conversation in small groups. jrash approached one group and intoduced me. "Hey, guys, look who is here! It's Socrates. You know, in Leon, 'It seemed to Socrates. To SAH - KRUH - TEES.'" We sat down beneath a large tree. "jrash," I said, "you seem to have a wonderful place, here. But perhaps you could clear something up that has been puzzling me?" "Certainly," replied jrash, "I will do my best." "It concerns Natalie Portman. I have been wondering why she inspires such a devoted following in so many people. She gets almost as many hits on Google as Britney Spears; she has website after website dedicated to her; people still talk about "Leon" years and years after its release about it changing their life; otherwise normal guys go all misty-eyed when her name is mentioned; they spend hours on the internet searching for photos of her and posting on message boards. Can you explain what is behind all this?" While I was speaking I noticed SmOOch had been trying to interrupt but his companions had been holding him back. Now that I had paused he lunged at me like a wild animal. "Socrates, why do you go on in this irritating way of asking questions when you know full well what the answer is? Everyone knows the answer to your question: Nat's a hot chick and all the guys here want to boff her. End of story." I was really quite taken aback by SmOOch's assault and looked at him in dismay. "Really, SmOOch, I assure you I ask questions because I genuinely want to know. I rely on people like yourself to enlighten me." |
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Cal |
Solutions and Suggestions | ||
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Ah.... yes. atrex's philosophy thread.
I love all of these posts. Great stories/lessons I am learning a lot from all you smart people. You are all the greatest! Cal Where are ya, atrex? I hope everything worked out for you. |
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floothe |
Re: Solutions and Suggestions | ||
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WHAT???
She RAN into her room? AHHehahehHAEHHAHE. Why did she need to think about getting the pizza when she then demonstrated one solution? I'm all sorts of confused. The barber was a woman?? Dagfriggity frick a frack!! I didn't think of that. I thought the premise ruled that out. I agree, Cal, smarty smarty people here. yeah, I hope atrexs61 is having a good time. Seems like he moved into a place with his lady friend and didn't see the board much. It seems like he was in NYC. Not sure. bt ntl s prdx! O come let me adore her! O come let me adore her! O come let me adore Her-rrrrr! Nat-a-liePortman!!!!
"Could it be that a society that practices violence in order to end violence has it a bit backwards? That is the problem with many moral justifications. They can breed insane behaviors. Your planet saw evidence of that on September 11th, 2001. Again."-God |
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pnina2 |
Re: Solutions and Suggestions | ||
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Well, you know floothe, what pizza can do to certain people...
I guess, Natalie wasn't being rational; She didn't remember that the paradox, was actually solved... She wasn't aware of that, while she was running to her room. But, I forgive her; She was confused and hungry. I know that usually, she's much smarter than this.... See ya, my net-palls ! "Are you talking to me?" - Travis Bickle
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